x_icarus | (no subject)

(no subject)

I know this isn't the right time for this, but apart of me feels like it is. I'm not looking for a fight, but it's gonna come out that way because I've been thinking about it and I'm a little tired of people saying the same thing.

"You're not on the team, you don't know any better, you don't understand and you don't know what you're talking about."

Just because we're not on the team doesn't mean we don't know what we're talking about. Maybe we don't know all the details but it'd be really nice if you stop saying stuff like that.

I have my opinions and I reckon I'm allowed to put them out there. I found the last days troubling, from both what's been happening and how it's panned out in everyone around me. I'm not on the team for just that reason. Because I can't do attacks and I can't steel myself from things like someone dying, or someone gettin the tar beaten out of them, even though they've fallen already. I don't care that he's killed millions of people. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't think this is gonna solve anything or settle the upset stomach I have everytime I think about those looks that I caught when they were burnin off their anger. I get it, everyone's mad as hell, but I'm not cold hearted and I'm not like that. I can't relate.

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I'm not gonna feel guilty for giving the bastard a few scars for souvenirs. If that makes me cold, so be it.

You miss the point so forget it.

No, I get it, flyboy. You're the big compassionate heart and we're not.

Go you.

If you feel like you need to turn this around, fine. I didn't expect a whole lot.

I'm not going to tell you that you don't understand. What I am going to tell you is that being judgmental is very, very easy and fairly useless most days.

It's perfectly fine that you don't agree with the things that were done. You are more then welcome to your opinion. You're welcome to yell it from the hills as well. (I did like the little attempt at a save at the start though. Some advice, if something doesn't feel right in your gut, I say go with it.)

Anyway, you've got a right to all these things. But we've also got a right to tell you that you don't understand. To tell you that you haven't had the training that we've had. That probably seems terribly unfair, but then life often is.

A dead enemy is an enemy that's no longer a threat. It's a question of practicality. If all the group did was rough the guy up a little, that's pretty mild, Dude.

So, you're tellin me that if the army goes nad takes out a big bad, and the citizens of the surrounding area rn't happy about it, voicing their opinions, they don't understand? It's sort of the same thing. No I already said I don't have the training, I know that, but maybe it makes me feel it more because of that. Because I'm not indifferent to it.

I don't think you got it though either.

Dude... what are you even talking about? You have your opinions and other people have their opinions, too.

I'm talking about the ugly side of people I thought I knew came out. Make better sense? I'm not so good at explaining this.

Yeah, but you're making it sound like everyone who brought the whacko down is mean and cruel and evil and has a heart of stone.

"I don't care that he's killed millions of people."

I am assuming that you mean to say that you do not see the fact that he killed so many people to be a justifiable reason for inflicting pain on him when it appeared that he had already been taken down, not that you mean to infer that you do not actually mind that he brought about the deaths of these people, yes?

Are you seriously asking me that?

I am merely pointing out how it could be taken. While I agree that I did not see any reason for the continued attacks after the man was down, your post does seem to entirely bypass the fact that he caused horrible things to happen, believed that he had the right to do these things, and that he did need to be stopped. At all costs, I am sure some would say.

At all costs, is what bothers me. Wouldn't that be takin on his mentality? Makes us no better than our attacker.

He caused harm for the betterment of himself. He was brought down for the betterment of others.

Incorrect. I would argue that while one's motivations are a factor in the ethics of an action, only the result of the action truly matters. You're dealing with a real sensitive area concerning the ethics of escalation of force, especially when there's an unknown quantity in the equation.

At the point where Apocalypse was brought down, none of us knew exactly how much he could withstand or how much of a threat he still was. Given the previous displays of power, I would make the argument that it served the greater good to err on the side of excessive force.

There is a difference between celebrating victory and celebrating the methods used. To revel in saving the day is an acceptable act. It's a celebration of life and a reaffirmation of a just cause. To revel in the violence, that is abhorrent.

I think everyone, in the end, has to answer to their own conscience for their actions and the methods used to what amounted to a noble end.

Wow, way to quote mine there. No one with half a brain would assume Jay meant that. Who evens asks such a stupid question?

I do, obviously, although it was more of a statement and a point than an actual question.

A point for what? Are you a troll who likes to take things completely out of context and twist them around to insult the OP? I'd suggest 4chan for you, then.

I have no idea what you are referring to, but thank you very much for your insightful and helpful comments. I hope they made you feel better.

They did. I get my jollies when I point out people being retarded.

Jay, something that you might not have been clear on in all that confusion that changes things here is what the man's powers were. He apparently fed off... support, for lack of a better word. SHIELD will have to be the ones to determine precisely how it works.

But the thing is, the people who were attacking Apocalypse weren't doing it for the fun of it. They were doing it because that was precisely what was necessary to counter his power. Even the people who weren't actually physically attacking him were... rejecting him. It was literally the only way we knew of at the time to depower the man.

I don't know where this perception came from - not just you - that it was done out of vengeance. It wasn't. It was a tactical necessity - whatever emotional overtones were there, they were secondary.

I didn't know that and no one explained that until now. Thankyou. It just seemed like everyone was enjoying it just a bit too much. And maybe I'm wrong for it, but I sympathized on some level. Maybe what he's doing isn't right but... whether you kill one person or many, havn't we seen a lot of people already forgive and forget despite it? I'm not saying he's right, or dismissing all the people he killed. I just, this isn't coming out right.

To forgive and forget requires atonement - unconditional forgiveness is the sign of brain damage. To continue to pursue the redemption of someone who has no desire for it or concept of it, doubly so.

Trust me on this, Jay. There are some people that can't be reached. It's best not to lose sleep over it.

Yeah I can see that now. Sorry.

There's nothing wrong with the compassionate approach. It's just not a good fit in certain situations. If you find that the means you're willing to apply to resolve a difficult situation don't fit the situation, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you - just, maybe that you're not the right person to resolve that situation.

Everyone has to decide for themselves how far they're willing to go.

I think thats just what was mostly on my mind. Why they went the lengths they did and like you said, how far they're willing to go.

There's a difference between what was going on there and enjoying hurting someone. Trust me, dude. I spent most of that day with a guy who likes hurting people and none of us are anything like that - it's like - okay, you know the big stupid fight Laurie and I just had? It's that. It's the difference between having to be totally fucking violent because you gotta, and doing it cause you want to.

Nobody there wants to do that stuff - everybody there HAD to.

I agree. Two wrongs don't make a right. But I've always believed that like it's worse to not take action against the atrocities and let them take over. There's a quote that says something about how when good people stay silent that is the worse of all.

What I'm not sure Jay's getting is that what we were doing was taking action - that dude got stronger every time someone agreed with him. So having everyone, almost everyone be there and fighting against him, disagreeing with him - it sucked, but it was pretty much the only thing that worked against him.

I get that. I GET THAT NOW. Scott explained above.

>>>I'm not cold hearted<<<

Really? Because from here, watching you sit in judgment of your friends (and do not claim you are not, because you have just called them cold hearted), who have stepped up to risk life and limb time and time again when you couldn't find the balls to do so, that seems pretty fucking cold to me.

It doesn't matter what you know, or what you don't, regardless of your personal feelings, you have simply not earned the right to publicly judge these people. Your job here, in so far as you have one, is to not make them feel like you think less of them.

Trying to figure out whether or not your friends are screwed up so bad that they actually enjoyed it is what I'm trying to figure out. That I didn't see the expressions on their faces when they're powers were hitting him. That the people I know arn't exactly the people I thought I knew.

And it's my godamn right as a citizen (and as their friend) to question and judge any position that throws its authority out there to serve, protect and do things that the population can't (enforce using... force).

Maybe I shouldn't have done this publicly, but I wanted to get an overall feel for this, and maybe someone can help get a better grasp on it. (Thanks to scott and Forge). but no thanks to anyone else that took some personal cut on it because I wasn't attacking one person outright.

I will spell it out again, because you appear to be hard of thinking: you do not have the right to *publicly* judge.

You can think what you like in the privacy of your own head, or even within the privacy of whatever peer group you that finds your opinions acceptable. I have no right to tell you what to think or believe, and nor does any other fucker. You want to think your friends are monsters, you go right ahead and do that.

But when you have the temerity to judge these people who have walked through shit and poison that you have decided you couldn't handle far, far, too many times, without asking for any reward, when you to do that to their fucking faces when most of them are still recovering, well, you just don't have that right. I don't care what your fucking constition says, or what the laws says you're allowed to do, or what you're allowed to do just because you possess limbs and a brain: you don't have the right to attack them further, and still call yourself a decent human being.

"Trying to figure out". "Wanted to get a feel". Fuck off. You're an adult, and those're the argument of a child who does not understand that sometimes, you shut the fuck up, deal with your own feelings and confusion yourself, and basically put the people who have looked after you first.

No, You fuck off. Seriously. Everyone handles things differently. This is how I'm handling it. I'm not just gonna sit down and shut my mouth just because you say bend over and deal with it. I had questions, I wanted to know. I don't think wanting to know and understand better is a bad thing. I don't think that I'm wrong to be worried about the people I live with, worried about them, worried for them, worried period. I think this is the perfect time to sit down and actually figure out if people need alittle more help than they say they need. Then they pretend they need

Maybe you're cold to people dying, or getting beaten on but I'm not. And I don't have that bravo to do just that. But don't condemn me for it cause I ain't clapping my hands and saying 'way to go team'.

What I have been trying to get across to you is that this is one of those times where your need to handle things your way comes second to other peoples.

You aren't wrong to be worried - you have that right, and I'm sure there's plenty that would agree with you that is an appropriate response, and that being so means that you're a lovely man and a very special snowflake. You are dead wrong, offensively wrong, in your means of handling it.

"I don't have that bravo to do just that"

Then to use an American expression, fucking man up, son. You're not being asked to be cold to it. It is lovely that you are not, and the world is a better place for it. You're being asked not to judge in accusatory tone while everyone copes with getting first hand experience of an attempted genocide. If not being able to do that makes like slightly harder for you, that's called being a grown up.

I didn't want it to come out in an accusatory judgemental tone. I just wanted to talk about it. Sorry.

I see how it is. I spend the day in Medlab, and the entire school loses cohesion. I blame Stavros.

That said -- though I do realize the conversation has gotten a bit heated, is that really call to resort to profanity and defamation? Glad as I am to see tempers have now cooled somewhat, it was still a bit startling. I am somewhat accustomed to Jay's idiosyncrasies, but Mr. Wisdom, aware as I am that I may have cause to regret this, particularly having gathered from school gossip you could end me in something less than thirty seconds, I found your provocation in particular a bit surprising for a former school counselor. The enemy was left in Manhattan -- a detail I think would behoove us all to remember, regardless of our differences of opinion. We need no more fighting.

At any rate, to the point. Jay, whilst I agree with Kyle's assertion that there may perhaps have been a more appropriate (re: less inflammatory) way in which to approach the matter, I do understand your concerns. As Mr. Summers has already sufficiently laid out the tactical concerns, I shall not reiterate beyond the fact that, to my perception, the measure of force seemed sufficient.

As for the perceived hostility towards the bloke -- on this, I can speak only for myself. In truth, I was indeed in a state of heightened hostility. Whilst I agree this is not the ideal state in which to engage an enemy, in this particular case I do not believe it significantly impacted my performance. Beyond that -- perhaps it is wrong of me, but in a perverse way I am glad for that outrage. I am not a soldier, nor a weapon. I have an emotional reaction to violence and the injury of others. Though I agree no action should be taken in anger, I feel it is every bit as dangerous to lack feeling. Without passion, attrocity becomes possible -- the callous dismissal of life as "acceptable casualties," the taking of lives as devoid of emotion as the push of a button. For some individuals this is perhaps a necessary evil, but not, I hope, for the X-Men.

We are none of us perfect, but we also walk a somewhat uneven slope. Perhaps, at times, we stumble to one side or the other, but it is my hope that the fact we try to keep to the straight earns us something.

Don't tell anyone, but I'm not actually a trained counsellor.

Mate, if even half of what I'm told of you is true, you could name yourself Once and Future King of the Northern Hemisphere and you would find yourself hard-pressed to be called upon it.

(Out of curiousity, I've always wondered if there was any truth to rumours of that bit with the dog . . .)

Most of what you have been told is lies, and I am in fact, a terrible let down.

(And the bit with the dog is especially lies, I don't care whose photos you have seen.)

Dude, you can't pin nothing on me. I didn't even start it this time.

Thanks for writing that out. Meant a lot to actually have it laid out a little more in detail for me. The last line should be the motto or something of Xmen.

Well, you know me: if it's worth saying, it's worth saying at great length.

"Trying to figure out whether or not your friends are screwed up so bad that they actually enjoyed it is what I'm trying to figure out. That I didn't see the expressions on their faces when they're powers were hitting him. That the people I know arn't exactly the people I thought I knew. "

This is the same shit Laurie did to me a WEEK ago. you're basically saying you don't trust any of us, even though you have no reason AT ALL to -not- trust us.

You couldn't asked, dude. You could've said "You know, most of these folks, who by the way, totally saved my ass at least once, have ever done anything like this before, so why are they doing it now?" and ASKED before you went all "OMG YOU GUYS ARE ALL EVIL"

You know, most of these folks, who by the way, totally saved my ass at least once, have ever done anything like this before, so why are they doing it now?

Happy?

Except Scott, who by the way, took the time to explain it and why everyone was the way they were.

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